tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2488887316391780144.post6064164771909302353..comments2024-03-29T07:43:01.003+00:00Comments on Help! I Need a Publisher!: SOAP-BOX: ELIZABETH BAINES & A DIFFICULT BIRTHNicola Morganhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12189894289540344094noreply@blogger.comBlogger25125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2488887316391780144.post-42822782794721720912010-12-11T20:25:56.316+00:002010-12-11T20:25:56.316+00:00Lol, no, I wasn't saying that at all XD. '...Lol, no, I wasn't saying that at all XD. 'Talent' is just such a hackle-raiser for me. It's like God--everyone claims to believe in it but nobody has any evidence that it exists.<br /><br />Thanks for the link :).nonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00415222406280230021noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2488887316391780144.post-37230799648932709072010-12-11T00:50:28.021+00:002010-12-11T00:50:28.021+00:00Buffy, maybe you are saying my work shows no evide...Buffy, maybe you are saying my work shows no evidence of talent. I can't answer that.<br /><br />If you are speaking more generally here's a post of mine that touches on that: http://fictionbitch.blogspot.com/2007/02/creative-accounting.htmlElizabeth Baineshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17193751871434773972noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2488887316391780144.post-32858148323337818002010-12-11T00:25:11.834+00:002010-12-11T00:25:11.834+00:00Ok, I have my open mind and my cup of tea handy. P...Ok, I have my open mind and my cup of tea handy. Produce your evidence for the existence of 'talent' :).nonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00415222406280230021noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2488887316391780144.post-47514548458139865812010-12-08T08:50:50.291+00:002010-12-08T08:50:50.291+00:00Thanks so much for this. Excellent, all of it.Thanks so much for this. Excellent, all of it.Rachel Fentonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10046917627054462214noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2488887316391780144.post-13827734246910073112010-12-07T19:43:19.596+00:002010-12-07T19:43:19.596+00:00Arrgghhh my TBR pile is about to get one book high...Arrgghhh my TBR pile is about to get one book higher...Kath McGurlhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02526923882402757423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2488887316391780144.post-24110382014024796732010-12-07T09:46:32.554+00:002010-12-07T09:46:32.554+00:00Just to clarify, I wasn't at all saying that c...Just to clarify, I wasn't at all saying that class had anything to do with someoene's ability to learn how to write a pitch letter, though it may have sounded like I was saying that - that would be patronising in the extreme as you rightly point out. I was pointing out that for people in some circumstances getting access to the means to learn some thingss that are inherently learned Dan Hollowayhttp://eightcuts.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2488887316391780144.post-3814097623758360852010-12-07T07:18:04.198+00:002010-12-07T07:18:04.198+00:00Thanks for all your comments - really interesting ...Thanks for all your comments - really interesting stuff. Sorry I didn't join in yesterday - I'm up to my ears in stuff.<br /><br />Dan, actually, I absolutely subscribe to the "anyone who can write a readable book must be able to write a well-structured query letter" view. I disagree that it's middle-class or divisive. What i think is divisive is when we say that someone whoNicola Morganhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12189894289540344094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2488887316391780144.post-41104111282256622472010-12-06T22:56:26.411+00:002010-12-06T22:56:26.411+00:00UGH, certainly not sure of the birthing chair so I...UGH, certainly not sure of the birthing chair so I'm feeling fortuante I've already had my son :)<br />However, I don't really go by the term 'luck' I think people make their own luck; there is only what happens in life; good, bad or indifferent, things happen for a reason. <br />Thanks for the thoughtful post...Tracyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12795817810030681267noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2488887316391780144.post-70773797566013582122010-12-06T15:40:56.581+00:002010-12-06T15:40:56.581+00:00Lovely to see two of my friends meeting like this,...Lovely to see two of my friends meeting like this, so to speak! Elizabeth used to be neighbour of mine in Manchester and I've known her for decades. Indeed, I have a copy of the first edition of the wonderful Birth Machine. This story is fascinating in all sorts of ways and to those who haven't read Elizabeth's work I do heartily recommend it. TOO MANY MAGPIES is terrific and she'adelehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15826710558292792068noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2488887316391780144.post-43703786527048574802010-12-06T14:49:04.676+00:002010-12-06T14:49:04.676+00:00Nice post! I agree that talent, perseverance, and ...Nice post! I agree that talent, perseverance, and determination go together. Luck helps, too, but you can't get that "luck" if you don't put time in and do the work! Persistence is how you get to be in the right place at the right time, or in a lucky situation. :)Laura S.https://www.blogger.com/profile/13934230198562773803noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2488887316391780144.post-60149598858195196122010-12-06T14:40:24.011+00:002010-12-06T14:40:24.011+00:00I like this post a lot, for the same reasons as ev...I like this post a lot, for the same reasons as everyone else. The spotlight's on feminist presses here, but there is small-mindedeness to be found in every part of publishing and the media, like everywhere else. Being all individual and talented and expressing yourself *might* get you hailed as a genius... but if what you're doing isn't convenient and digestible as well as clever, itGo away googlehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00920753582190379988noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2488887316391780144.post-68607898507706498992010-12-06T13:19:33.083+00:002010-12-06T13:19:33.083+00:00BTW, I think my main point about luck is that actu...BTW, I think my main point about luck is that actually sometimes you can have really bad luck, as I think I did, and in many ways I think that good luck = the absence of bad luck. Basically there are some events that are out of your control. But then on the other hand I do believe that there are ways in which you can act to turn things around. I know I called that chance to write the TV Elizabeth Baineshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17193751871434773972noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2488887316391780144.post-45577851464423507262010-12-06T13:08:31.655+00:002010-12-06T13:08:31.655+00:00@Buffy "It's a good excuse for why the ri...@Buffy "It's a good excuse for why the rich succeed and the poor fail"<br />Hurrah to that. My wife and I watched Piers Morgan (don't ask why) do a programme on Monaco and he did an interview on a speedboat with James Caan from Dragons' Den, and asked him about his tax status. James calmly said that he deserved everything he had because he worked hard. I think there's a Dan Hollowayhttp://eightcuts.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2488887316391780144.post-61739110648769419082010-12-06T13:06:35.049+00:002010-12-06T13:06:35.049+00:00No, he certainly didn't!!No, he certainly didn't!!Elizabeth Baineshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17193751871434773972noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2488887316391780144.post-25120974072763205202010-12-06T11:57:53.093+00:002010-12-06T11:57:53.093+00:00*is sorry*
Still, perhaps he hadn't understoo...*is sorry*<br /><br />Still, perhaps he hadn't understood their point of view as well as he thought :).nonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00415222406280230021noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2488887316391780144.post-70413899584290639952010-12-06T11:49:22.994+00:002010-12-06T11:49:22.994+00:00Thanks for these comments, everyone, and thanks so...Thanks for these comments, everyone, and thanks so much Nicola for the opportunity to talk about these things.<br />But Buffy, I must defend John. He did NOT know better, and there is seriously no SHOULD about it. He certainly knew better the moment the shit hit the fan, but before that he seriously if naively thought that feminists would be pleased to know that a man could understand a woman'Elizabeth Baineshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17193751871434773972noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2488887316391780144.post-2265295890298263092010-12-06T11:47:00.258+00:002010-12-06T11:47:00.258+00:00What a shocking story. And how ironic that the fem...What a shocking story. And how ironic that the feminist press seemed unable to separate Elizabeth's actions from those of her male partner.JaneFhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03920957855661479676noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2488887316391780144.post-24232485577442019332010-12-06T11:09:11.059+00:002010-12-06T11:09:11.059+00:00I take the more radical line that talent as we und...I take the more radical line that talent as we understand it simply doesn't exist. It's a good excuse for why the rich succeed and the poor fail, though.<br /><br />Guilt by association sucks. But John should've known better. Srsly.nonehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00415222406280230021noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2488887316391780144.post-10240039150987915972010-12-06T11:06:03.968+00:002010-12-06T11:06:03.968+00:00As others have commented, this is a fascinating an...As others have commented, this is a fascinating and thought-provoking post on many levels. I have never subscribed to the 'talent will out' mantra and Elizabeth's awful (but ultimately inspiring) experiences show that much more is needed and that raw talent cannot survive without that stubborn kernel of self-belief, bloody hard work and determination, none of which are easily come by-Sally Zigmondhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07520579251842006765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2488887316391780144.post-40572892908340237982010-12-06T10:18:42.829+00:002010-12-06T10:18:42.829+00:00I agree with her completely about 'talent will...I agree with her completely about 'talent will out' being a lazy and complacent way of powerful people ignoring inequality. Getting published is part talent, part timing, part luck - like most things in life. Very few of us have the kind of career that is completely predictable and safe.Keren Davidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13121027210783177857noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2488887316391780144.post-20686517089447050582010-12-06T10:17:37.864+00:002010-12-06T10:17:37.864+00:00I knew this story about Elizabeth's book, but ...I knew this story about Elizabeth's book, but it was great to read it here, all so clearly laid out. I do agree that talent won't necessarily get itself out, especially in today's climate. And even if it does, it may just be a tiny outing unless the writer is prepared to do a great deal of self-promotion (as difficult as that may be) and marketing, and be as innovative and flexible Sue Guineyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13556228394020314560noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2488887316391780144.post-20047748113485800662010-12-06T10:11:47.424+00:002010-12-06T10:11:47.424+00:00Interesting post! The phrase 'talent will out&...Interesting post! The phrase 'talent will out' is said, I think, to give hope. That if you're talented and you keep ploughing on with your writing, then eventually, you will be published/successful, whatever your criteria for writing is. However I do believe, very strongly, that luck and timing play a greater part. The right manuscript has to land on the right desk at the right time Nicolettehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01204664514310990272noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2488887316391780144.post-11557659886914339272010-12-06T09:13:58.643+00:002010-12-06T09:13:58.643+00:00Very interesting post not least for another insigh...Very interesting post not least for another insight into the feminist presses - a good writer friend of mine has experienced a similar reaction to the one Elizabeth describes that has had a similar effect on her.<br /><br />The "talent will out" brigade are one of the few groups in society who make my blood boil, because that seemingly innocuous phrase perpetuates so much social Dan Hollowayhttp:.//eightcuts.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2488887316391780144.post-26739272447935051052010-12-06T09:00:56.318+00:002010-12-06T09:00:56.318+00:00That's a book I'm definitely going to have...That's a book I'm definitely going to have to read. Thanks for drawing my attention to it, Elizabeth's story and her blog - to which I have just subscribed.<br /><br />And hooray for Salt Publishing!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2488887316391780144.post-73697341471580296392010-12-06T07:58:14.511+00:002010-12-06T07:58:14.511+00:00Thank you for this. I'll definitely give her w...Thank you for this. I'll definitely give her work a look. This is the real story of contemporary publishing. There's a huge industry out there built on lying to aspiring writers, telling them the market is still as open as it was twenty years ago. But most of it is lies. And the worst thing you can do is get published to good reviews and slow sales. Better to be unpublished for 20 years.<Anne R. Allenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02420000168356370825noreply@blogger.com